I took on board Bapak's insight that the chattering mind and volatile feelings can be distractions on the spiritual path. But after about 10 years of being wary of 'heavy stuff' I came back to reading books that helped me understand myself and others. Now I'd highly recommend to people that they read widely (fearlessly) rather than expect, as it were, God to do all the spadework.
This came about partly because I was struggling as a step-dad and realised (eventually) it might help to see what others outside Subud have learned through experience. In reading psychology, and in engaging with friends outside Subud, I realised I'd cut myself off from a whole wealth of useful knowledge 'for this world'. And getting interested again didn't seem to be disturbing my latihan.
By interesting coincidence with what you’ve written here, in the recent days, in our borderless post-latihan discussions, we’ve been meeting a few non-Subud people (recently several from Ireland, and one from the US) who got interested in Subud path. I told them first to google Subud and then ask questions.
Yesterday and today, we’ve continued…. Two provocative questions were raised re: the Subud’s founder words 1) about mixing, and 2) about homosexuality. This turned into over 2 hours vivid sharing of experiences, views, reflections.
One of the side motifs was about “distractions” that ended up in understanding the “spiritual path” and “distractions” as a sort of a 2 way street with a feedback loop (or spiral), one is the “soul gym” time possibly w/o distractions, then the effects of the “soul gym” time on the life full of distractions and… back and forth, endlessly… both enriching each other: the soul and the way how to deal with distractions in a (hopefully) positive spiral.
And… Stefan, as for what you mentioned as “struggling as a step-dad”, some of us in these meetings have and share their extraordinary step-family type experiences, starting from bitter, profoundly painful ones where autism, addictions come to place, leading towards how to handle these issues in a prevention-detection-response-recovery processes. Jan
From your description it's very different from the idea that groups of helpers help members with problems (which promotes an unequal and patronising approach). I'm getting the sense of a non-judgemental environment which is as much about sharing questions as coming up with 'pat' answers.
I and some of my latihan friends derive enormous support from having open and frank conversations (email, forum and face to face) which embrace both practical struggles, ethical and 'spiritual' questions. I wouldn't want anyone to feel a pressure to connect in this way. But for me it's an enriching counterpart to the very individual and private experience I have in latihan. And this 'community' peer-group is something I'd love to see developing.
From my Subud groups experiences and observations, including personal testing sessions I’ve participated either as helper or the one wanted to test my personal questions, I’ve rarely met individuals with as you say “an unequal and patronising approach”, such approach is not in my interest anyway… unless it inspires me to engage myself into and open, honest discussion with such an individual, potentially leading to more humble and self-exploring attitude towards others.
In these though, using your term, “'community' peer-groups” that I’ve been participating and which have been constantly developing, we are embracing the ones that you name “latihan friends” and recently more and more the ones who are interested in joining us.
In our going deeper and deeper sharing process, it would be hardly imaginable to come out with any ‘pat’ answers, I’ve rather observed growing number of profound questions to be explored in one’s inner while being in our quoting you “practical struggles, ethical and 'spiritual' questions” and I, similarly to you, feel mutual “enormous support” and lessons-learned there.
Thank you, Brother, for what you’ve been doing. :-) Jan
My thanks to you, too, Jan, because I like the service you're offering for Subud people and your warm embracing approach. Paradoxically I sometimes feel (implicitly) criticized or judged by your responses to my posts - though this may be my own projections rather than anything you are intending.
This happens when I share something of my struggles. For example my applicant friends who have been puzzled at the superior and high-handed way they've been told what's what and what's not by group helpers. These applicants were women in their 60s who have already a broad experience of life and a longtime interest in spirituality but were (they reported) lectured by the helpers like naughty school children.
It's completely fair and valid for you to say that you've rarely met individuals who act in this way. I'm delighted that's so. But I would also like some kind of acknowledgement for my direct experience. Some indication if you believe me (or do you think I'm just inventing it?) or can feel some empathy. Man, the truth is I am understating things (trying to remain polite!) but find such behaviour from fellow helpers stressful, painful, embarrassing, and deeply disappointing. Yet I'm hanging in the Subud camp though it is not easy to. I'm sorry that some kind of raw nerve was triggered by the first 3 lines of your response, even though this may be 'my stuff' rather than your responsibility.
Oh, Stefan, thank you so much for telling me that you “sometimes feel (implicitly) criticized or judged” by my responses to your posts, thank you for giving me that chance to clarify.
By no means please take my responses to you as criticisms or judgements; this might be my unclear way of expressing my views, my feelings.
Taking your example of the “applicants friends” experience, I not only fully respect, I fully support your struggle with what you have described as: “the superior and high-handed way they've been told what's what and what's not by group helpers”. I do feel uncomfortable reading it however without having access to these “group helpers” and to their directly expressed (discussed) reasons for their decisions, having possibly an open round table conversation about it.
I do, Stefan, fully acknowledge your shared experience and I wouldn’t accept such a behaviour either, I would challenge it until some consensus and recovery actions are reached.
Without the “group helpers” being questioned and having their responses, I feel unfair to take only the second hand words as proof of their “superior and high-handed way”.
So please forgive me, Brother, for hurting your feelings and thank you for saying that, Jan
Many thanks for your kind response and especially for supporting my need for fairness Jan.
And I completely agree about hearing from all people concerned rather than draw conclusions after hearing from one party. I need to be able to raise concerns and to receive support for my feelings, but that doesn't make my perceptions 'right' - and the best wasy to move forward is full communication from all people on all 'sides'. I'm really hoping all involved will manage to do this over the next weeks and months, so that there can be a useful outcome (particularly for a friend recently 'excluded' from Subud) and mutual learning, honesty and forgiveness,
My heart, my soul and full support are and will be with you in this process of raising your concerns and of fully communicating with all involved parties.
This situation, your determination and perseverance for fairness in it may become a “blessing in disguise”, an awakening, with profound effects on people involved and ripple effects through them to others.
Re: "the way to deal with distractions in a (hopefully) positive spiral."
I find this a rich topic.
My experience is that a distraction may be a clue to a hidden strength. For example my challenge used to be constant fantasising (as an escape) but now my vivid imagination has a vessel - my work in designing dances, events and courses - to pour itself into with productive results. A question I'd be interested in asking anyone who is struggling with addiction is whether there's a theme (personal story) behind the addictive pattern? If the struggle were a signpost toward some forward path, where would it be pointing?
It's an area where I'm interested to learn - and to hear about others' experiences.
You wrote: “A question I'd be interested in asking anyone who is struggling with addiction is whether there's a theme (personal story) behind the addictive pattern?”
This particular subject of “addictive patterns” was opened here by the personal story of addiction written some time ago in this Forum by James (nickname: jflash) who has recently started an online AA program, and he wrote a related letter to the current UK Congress.
This subject, including the personal stories behind it, has now been for some time one of the primary topics in our borderless sharing/discussing meetings where both Subud and also non-Subud people participate. Each of their addiction related stories is extremely profound, awakening to the prevention-detection-response-recovery process. It includes alcohol, drug addiction patterns but also less known ones like “failure addiction”, “being abused addiction”, “depression addiction”.
Stefan, I don't know what Bapak meant about chattering mind, but my impression is that it was generally interpreted as needing to avoid thinking as a distraction and impediment on the spiritual path.
I think this was a colossal mistake - I agree that thinking is not what the latihan is about, but thinking is a BIG PART of who we are as humans and we need to use it fearlessly as you put it, not run away from it.
I prefer to use the idea of balance - the need to find balance in our life between spiritual practices and being actively engaged in this world with our mind and will. I think both ways of being are worthwhile and essential to live a balanced life.
I've been known in desparation to address my mind with as much love and respect i can muster and make a request to it along the lines of ...."I really love and respect you but would be happy for you to take a bit of a back seat for the time being.. thank you so much" it complies for a bit and gives me a bit of peace back !
Maia. The 'for a bit' is telling. My discipline seeks to extend the very short 'bit' into a longer and longer 'bit' over time. I have succeeded for useful lengths of time but it takes a lot of patience and sustaining the longer times requires not being put off by set backs and renewed maintenence. One technique that works for me is to pay attention to one of two states: total blankness (a black void which can be constructed by thinking of a scene totally covered by black velvet - a technique I borrowed from eye training) and focussing on paying attention to the act of paying attention itself. Both can result in babble cessation. The payoff is worth it. For me deeper level exploration becomes possible.
The black velvet idea really appeals I'll try it out and report back, maybe purple instead of black . Black feels a bit smothering but will see. Yoga breathing also helps. Though as I am still reaping the benefits of Congress with loads of latihans and good experiences its not needed yet - It will be interesting to see how long it takes before the babbling comes back.
“I don't know what Bapak meant about chattering mind, but my impression is that it was generally interpreted as needing to avoid thinking as a distraction and impediment on the spiritual path.”
As Michael says, this is obviously related to the latihan. I believe it is a common experience that active thinking prevents spontaneous receiving. But to ascribe Bapak general advice against thinking would be a downright misinterpretation. Quite the contrary, he advised a lot of young people to study to become doctors, teachers, architects and other professions, tasks that require years of intensive thinking.
Rikard and Michael, I am grateful that Bapak was not against thinking where it makes sense.
Perhaps it is more the impression I get from Subud culture where I have met many people that do not seem willing to engage in thinking critically about the things that Bapak said (such as his hard attitude against meditation), and where I think the Subud worldview has a bias in favor of magical thinking, and this worldview claims and believes that Subud is special and the latihan has some special power, different from everything else.
I don't mind entertaining the idea that the latihan carries some power with it, but I find it hard to stomach the idea that latihan is so unique that it has something that nothing else has. For more of my assumptions, see my article on the subudvision.org website: http://www.subudvision.org/ah/Latihan as Spiritual Adventure.htm
Isn't it enough to talk about our own experiences in the latihan and to encourage people to explore on their own? How can we definitely say that the latihan is unique and better than everything else? I don't think we "know" in the sense that we use the word know today, as something subject to empirical verification.
Stefan, Am I misunderstanding your original post? Rikard and Michael are saying that Bapak's comments about the chattering mind were meant to apply to doing the latihan, not to operating and living in this world where using the mind is useful and necessary.
Yet you say "I took on board Bapak's insight that the chattering mind and volatile feelings can be distractions on the spiritual path. But after about 10 years of being wary of 'heavy stuff' I came back to reading books that helped me understand myself and others. Now I'd highly recommend to people that they read widely (fearlessly) rather than expect, as it were, God to do all the spadework."
Am I misinterpreting what you are saying, that the Subud goal was to avoid using the mind as much as possible in everything we do? And that trusting in God was another way of saying not to use the mind?
My mind has rarely got in the way of my receiving , just occasionally, but in other areas of my life it could have been and could well be a lot more sharper. In some ways the latihan experience has given me more wisdom. This would be hard to prove, but I can sense things and observe people and think around ideas in a flexible way that has been encouraged by my latihan. In other ways I have let myself be lazy in my thinking. in the past I tried always to keep it from heavy deep subjects, leaning on "feeling' instead, this was maybe a natural inclination encouraged by the subud cultural influence coming from the seventies. Now I feel it needs a lot more exercise than it gets and I watch my short term memory become worryingly weak. Those of you who have clever minds have a talent that should be encouraged and validated and used for good purpose IMO. Don't ask me what I mean by good purpose I suppose that is for the person to discover.
Like Stefan I became more directed towards reading for my own develpment and understanding and also I wanted to get some different qualifications. ( eighties) Nowdays I am surprised, to say the least, if someone in subud still expresses disapproval of psychological or human development reading and ideas when the psychological vernacular has reached even our anachronistic culture and is a common part of everyday language. I see this attitude as a left over of a previous era largely to be ignored, and I think a very large percentage of subuds do ignore this predjudice. Its the mind boggling theories of the universe I personally find difficult to adapt to now, the psychological seems very mainstream in comparison.
Hi Maia, I like your personal observations. I've always gone a lot by feeling and intuition - and still do. But I hadn't realised how sloppy my intellect had got till I had editorial feedback from Subud Vision editors. I could then take a step back and see that not only my language was flowery but my thinking was woolly. My ideas needed more research and sharper edges. Engaging with such articles, discussions and forums have - I hope - helped me get a bit of 'edge' to my mind, and I'm having fun with this - and feel more confident when talking with people who are lucid thinkers and well read. Also I'm more at home than I used to be with people who are argumentative. I now see my former 'nice agreeable' self as repressed and rather bland!
Hi Andrew, re: 'Am I misinterpreting what you are saying, that the Subud goal was to avoid using the mind as much as possible in everything we do? And that trusting in God was another way of saying not to use the mind?'
Thanks for your question. In my article called 'Mind: Fiend or Friend?' (www.subudvision.org) I included a long quote from Bapak's Susila Budhi Dharma about the benefits to society of studying and of developing our skill and cleverness. This illustrates Rikard's understanding that Subud's founder was all for intellectual development. I also agree with your observations: there has been a growing anti-intellectual tendency in Subud which is, it seems, an unfortunate misunderstanding of Bapak's advice about quietening the mind and imagination.
Maia's experience is of a growing number of Subud's who are bucking this trend. I tthink this is also true. There are two divergeing streams: A: those who - to generalise - want to feel and test everything and are suspicious of any info or skill not directly derived from receiving in latihan B: those who continue to read, have friends and find inspiration in the world outside of Subud I have characterised these two types or tendencies as 'mountains' (standing tall and firm) and 'rivers' (flowing out into the world, adapting their course according to the landscape) In principle a healthy organisation needs archivists and maintainers as well as innovators and adaptors. So the question, for me, is how to create understanding between two groups who are feeling alienated from one another. Can we focus on our common appreciation for the latihan and find a synergy?
Hi Stefan, It's always nice when someone like you agrees with someone like me, ;-> but I think you started this thread with your comments and observations, and I was simply asking if I understood what you were saying.
As for the rivers and mountains metaphor, I very much admire your consistent attempt to look for ways that Subud welcome both those who live in the Subud bubble and those like you and me who do not and find life and inspiration in the outside world.
You ask, can we create understanding between two groups who feel alienated from one another? Can we focus on our common appreciation for the latihan? I guess that you'd really like this to happen.
From my perspective, it could happen if both groups acknowledge the other group and their sensitivities. Do you see this happening in official Subud, or in official Subud publications? I'd love to point to some place where this is happening but I don't know of any. I think official Subud is pretending that everyone still worships Bapak and Ibu Rahayu.
Hi Andrew, I swing! My critical mind says: the gap is widening and a split is inevitable. My heart, when I meet with Subud friends, says: they're sincere, good people - dear to me - there must be a way forward. In practice I'm putting as much positive energy as I can into Subud while also talking a keen interest in the idea that, at some point, those who would like to share the latihan with 'all of mankind' (or even just a few new and younger people) might do well to share it more simply, with less baggage.
Actually I think the only thing that makes me hesitate is not wanting to hurt, offend or fall out with my many longstanding Subud friends. But I feel so sad about the way we collectively hide the latihan, disguise it with teachings and a helper-priesthood and an obstacle-course induction period, and a prohibition on publicity which leads us to almost insane secretiveness. I could rant on ...
Stefan. I generally agree but I think the Subud culture has worked hard at supressing peoples thinking capabilities and that they are now afraid of their minds and if presented with critical thought they just run away by dismissing it. Subud orthodoxy has given them plenty of tools to use in dismissal.
I agree. I think the chances of 'conversion' to critical thinking and re-evaluation for most Subud lifers are no better than the chances of recovery for longterm addicts. At the same time I imagine that the solid ground many have based their 'faith' on is becoming more and more like shifting sand. Surely some will be looking for a new understanding. So I feel the need to give it my best shot, at least until the addicts kick me out of the pharmacy!